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View Entire Thread: Mistress Lucrezia

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Mistress Lucrezia

    Quote Originally spoken by drgummi View Post
    > more harm than good

    Nah. You have to credit the YouTube generation with a lot more savvy than that - it may possibly reinforce existing prejudices but only in those who are already negatively inclined.
    Yeah true the negatively inclined will probably stay right where they are in regards to their viewpoint on latex. Though there seems no added benefit to preaching to the choir as they're already on side. There is a court of public opinion and my remark about the Chinese video was more about how people will perceive latex, fetish and bdsm. I know all can be considered separately but in a lot of people's opinions they are all intertwined.
    Gia Gloveliczyk
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Mistress Lucrezia

    Quote Originally spoken by Gia Gloveliczyk View Post
    but in a lot of people's opinions they are all intertwined.
    I do wish that kinky people could move to the next stage with some of this stuff. Those who want to set themselves up to criticise you will always find *something* to do it with, some lever to move you with, stick to hit you with: whatever you want to call it. Asking for raw materials to be banned is like identifying the hurt with the stick, instead of with the intention of the stick-wielder.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Mistress Lucrezia

    I don't think the problem is with kinky people moving to the next stage with some of this stuff, but I take your point.
    Gia Gloveliczyk
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  4. #24
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    Rubberron is offline Mainstream Media Sightings Editor Postacrat 1000+
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    Default Re: Mistress Lucrezia

    Hi to All

    According to this article http://www.metrotime.be/nlnewsbelga....lexid=50608390 , Mistress Lucrezia no longer has to stay in jail and has been set free a day after the reconstruction took place.

    She still has to go to court.


    Rubberized Greetngs
    Rubberron

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    Default Re: Mistress Lucrezia

    clearly the reconstruction (!) was conclusive in the matter. It would be nice to find out why they approached it in this way...

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Mistress Lucrezia

    Since the incident occured in my home country, and thus it's easier to read the local newspapers (in dutch) ... some points, without the ambition of trying to be either complete or objective;
    simply, because
    (a) i do not read the dozens of newspapers and/or magazines which took the generic belga news agency information (belga is the belgian version of reuters, AFP, ...), so this is only based on a fragment of the overall media coverage;
    (b) my information is also taken from the media, without any direct confirmation or additional information from any official source ...

    but, as said, some points:

    1. our national media coverage is 'factual' ... it reports on "a death in the villa of sm-mistress Lucrezia" ... both the title and the content of all the articles I read was very nuanced and much more factual than for example the coverage in some of the British media ... see for example The Sun, where they mention sadist, pervert, extreme abuse, etcetera.

    2. from a legal point of view, the case also is interesting. since the reaction of the judicial authorities is based on national penal code, this cannot be transposed to other countries, but the 'logic' in the case is interesting.
    SM is not an illegal activity in belgium as long as 'consenting addults' are involved. purely in principe restraining or causing pain in a fellow human being, is punishable because it is 'assault and battery', but the belgian legislator clearly makes a destinction between the case of violence vs bdsm.
    ms lucrezia and her assistant have not been charged because they practiced sm (or any fetish activity), including 'breath play', but because they:
    (a) used techniques/instruments which rendered the participant so impotent/uncapable of expressing his will ('stop', or any other wish) that there was no longer a case of 'consenting' play;
    (b) in addition - in belgium - the possession and use/administration of N2O is a medical act, and anybody involved with that should have a license to perform medicine. which was not the case for the two ladies.

    3. so summarizing point 2, the base case of the prosecutors' office is that sm is not an illegal act, but that the ladies involved performed the acts with insufficient 'consumer/client protection', which in this case lead to the death of the client. as such one could say that if this case comes to trial, that it will not be a case against kink, but it will be a case for more precautions and more quality management by the people who are presumed to be doing this in a professional manner.

    4. in a follow-up on earlier news articles, there was an article in most belgian newspapers yesterday,
    stating that the two ladies had been released from prison, following a reconstruction / re-enactment of the events earlier this week.
    the prosecutor's office had requested and obtained their detention during the investigations, to prevent them from (a) having contact with each other and (b) to prevent communication with third parties.
    during the reconstruction, the versions of the two mistresses were compared, since both were asked to explain and do the actual acts separately.
    the two ladies have been released from custody and newspapers reported in the same article that they will be (or have been) charged with "voluntary and pre-mediated assault and battery leading to death, but without the intention to kill".

    ... given the delays in our court system ... it might take some time before there actually will be a trial.


    5. referring also to my first point, yesterdays' article was in the top five of most read articles in virtually every newspaper. based on website reactions, the case however does not cause any large scale public disapproval or other negative reactions.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Mistress Lucrezia

    Quote Originally spoken by drgummi View Post
    clearly the reconstruction (!) was conclusive in the matter. It would be nice to find out why they approached it in this way...
    we have a system of pre-trial detention, the conditions of which are related to the nature of the crime and the possible penal consequences.
    if there is no risk that the suspects will flee, if they pose no direct threat to society, and if a trial cannot be planned at short notice, suspects are released (with or without bail).

    the reason for the detention - as the newspapers report it, but it is most likely correct - was merely to prevent the two ladies having contact with each other and with the outside world.
    in their initial statement to the police, they had testified that the victim had been alive after the session, and probably died of a heart attack taking a shower before returning home.
    after questioning (and probably being confronted with the facts from the autopsy) the ladies changed their story and admitted that the victim had died during the session, that they had panicked, that they had dragged the body to the shower, and they called 112 with the foney story.

    the investigators wanted the two ladies separated, and asked them independently and whithout the two being in the same room, to re-enact the fatal session, as a way of establishing coherence or contradictions in their stories.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Mistress Lucrezia

    Oof, a lot to say here...

    First, thank you ET for the translations and extra information, definitely very helpful.

    Quote Originally spoken by MissFuzzyBunny View Post

    I hope Observer will post a couple of the things he did on RubberPal. It could only help.
    Say my name 3 times and poof I appear!

    Quote Originally spoken by lslv View Post
    I am with MissFuzzyBunny the whole way. As a community we have to talk about these things. Similar events have happened.
    Indeed! I have it on good authority that there has been ELEVEN death due to breath play and/or solo play that went wrong in the last year or so amongst the rubberist community - and I believe (although I can't be sure) that this number is for North America only! Of course, most of these cases are not publicized, but I got this number from someone who has a very close ear to the ground.

    Clearly, we need to get our act together. (and note, these aren't "evil dominatrixes" doing this, it's rubberists doing it to themselves...)

    Quote Originally spoken by lslv View Post
    I followed the link to the English text and read the lady describing herself as a sadist of the worst sort.
    Well, I would take that with a grain of salt. Most professional dominatrixes will describe themselves in a similar fashion, it's just marketing I guess. I'll admit that I find it a bit anoying, but that's how it is.

    Quote Originally spoken by lslv View Post
    I hope that by far the majority of folk here would not want that said of themselves. Rubber loving should be about sharing an extra-ordinary pleasure and if for some pain becomes part of the experience, then those who take that on themselves to do should be fully educated in the responsibilities that topping brings. It seems these ladies did not think like that. I am reading a good book from Leyland Publications about exactly this called The Kiss of the Whip and another one in the genre is called On the Safe Edge.
    I don't see anything inherently wrong with BDSM, but I agree with you that these dommes *dropped the ball*. I'll repeat what I said on rubberpal:

    "I know panicking is a very human reaction, and it's always hard to predict how people will react in an emergency. That being said, any pro-domme should have a "what if shit hits the fan" plan. Older men DO have heart attacks in similar circumstances, it can happen! They should be able to do CPR/first aid and they should call the ambulance *right away*.

    I would even go as far as say they should have a defibrillator on the premises. Modern defibrillators are very advance and user friendly - they can scan the patient's heart, and tell you (with voice commands!) what to do, if a shock is needed etc

    In fact, anyone who does any kind of serious bondage scenes should have an emergency plan."

    Observer

    (stand by for more... )
    Last edited by Observer; 2010-Jul-10 at 16:46.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Mistress Lucrezia

    Quote Originally spoken by Shiva View Post
    And it is true that all fetishes are lumped together in the "mind of the public". But this is also a consequence of the BDSM scene which will put all the alt sexual practices inside their fetish tent and demand acceptance and tolerance for each person's kink. Then something tragic happens and each individual kink tries to declare their independence and detachment from the extreme practices. Essentially this boils down to wanting it both ways.

    While some rubberists see their kink as all pleasure: fun, fashion, fantasy and completely safe, many kinky folks share many fetish interests including rubber, and extreme play. There are no sharp boundaries and it is understandable why the non kinky public and especially the media lumps it all together. I don't see a simple way out of this, except for the mainstreaming of fetish as more of a fashion statement and less as a bizarre type of sexual expression. That seems to be happening.
    I think the "tenting" is a good thing. Trying to say "oh rubber is ok, it's not about SM!" is a fool's game. As you said, the public can't really differentiate the two, and a lot of rubberists are also into bondage and other things as well. It's just not productive to try to distance the two.

    When someone declares themselves an extreme sadist and one of their partners dies, it hard to deny intent to cause harm isn't it? Obviously as long as no one is seriously or fatally injured no criminal activity can be alleged or perhaps discovered. But does this make the activity's intent any different? I don't see this going away and only a series of tragedies occurring for the foreseeable future.

    This is very troubling.
    While this is a tragedy, let's not make a catastrophe out of it. I think this has a lot less to do with "extreme sadism" or "mental unbalance" or "evil money hungry dominatrixes" than it has to do with breathplay, the use of NO2/poppers, and older men not slowing down.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Mistress Lucrezia

    Quote Originally spoken by dudeman View Post
    The reason why this is so is because of sensationalism in the guise of journalism, where anything to do with sex or sexuality is treated in the same way as a schoolyard discussion involving eight year olds. Compare the news coverage of a man who dies playing football (any code) and a man who dies in the care of a dominatrix. Both were engaged in an activity they enjoyed at the time of their death. Coverage of the footballing death will be that of a random accident and how tragic it all is, while the other news article will smear scene participants as mentally ill pedophiles in training. This horrible negative coverage makes this kind of distancing from the scene unavoidable after an incident like this as a perception has already been built up and reinforced in the mind of the public. Society could grow up, and accept that people are sexual beings and that they choose to display it in different ways, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Sex sells, and all the tabloid readers need their daily dose of titillation.
    Well said! People take risks all the time doing more "extreme" activities, and sometimes die. Apparently the mortality rate for paragliders is 1/600 - ie every year, out of 600, 1 of them dies in an accident.

    Quote Originally spoken by drgummi View Post
    To my mind, the biggest problem is that the properly cruel, genuinely sadomasochistic types (and they do exist) are only too ready to lie about what they are interested in. This produces a number of very unfortunate, overlapping effects:

    - Many mistresses take on clients who want the way they look, and then gradually move the client towards more dangerous and more physically punishing sessions, because that's what they are into themselves.

    - Like it or not, Latex is and will always remain a uniform for fetish play.

    - Sitting here talking about the refined nature of true rubber fetish simply strengthens the "cover story" of edge players who are basically all about breaking consent rules. Leaving a large hole in discussing the sexual politics of kink because money changes hands, is playing directly into the agenda of those who do conduct their sex lives as a matter of deception.

    - when we have the long threads about explaining to vanillas that our kink is basically harmless, this kind of topic - how the tabloid press conflate "honest" kink with this kind of epic mixture of misadventure, misrepresentation and mysogyny - is left out of the picture. Vanillas have been told over and over again that kinks are *dishonest* - we are all just waiting to barbecue a baby, the moment their backs are turned. Unless we have out shit together with counter-statements for this specific bit of the field, our efforts to represent ourselves publically are dommed to failure. It won't go away if we ignore it...
    Oh come on now. I am not an edge player, but I find your depiction of edge players as being lying predatory psychopaths to be alarmist, insulting and ridiculous. Yes there are some predators in the scene (AS THERE ARE EVERYWHERE ELSE!) but to tar all edge players and sadomasochists with the same brush is misleading at best, and sheerly intolerant at worse.

    In fact, I think the lying may be more along the lines of a dominatrix trying to make herself look more "extreme" than she is to attract more clients.

    Once again, this story is NOT about extreme sadism. I think that yes, having our shit together is a good thing, but I don't like how you're assembling it.

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